WHY DO WE TRY TO DENY MESSI GREATNESS?
Anyone with an appreciation for international football most likely would be tired of hearing some of Jamaica’s so-called pundits who claim that Argentinean footballer Lionel Messi is not a great player. They find every ridiculous reason to try and deny what is right before them. Even Pele got in on the act last year but we understand his motivation he being from Brazil and all.
Just this past week I heard Oral Tracey, my long-time friend since high school days, proclaim that Messi would not have been able to accomplish what he has for Barcelona, had it not been for players like Iniesta and Xavi. Retired West Indies opener Wavell Hinds has even weighed in on the issue claiming that Messi has not done anything great for his home country and that takes away from his greatness. If you should listen to Tracey and Hinds, by their definition, no player who ever played football would be great.
Football is a team sport and it is by the function of the individual parts of that team that the team finds success. If each player plays his role well then the team more often than not finds success. We have seen it from the very first time football was played in an organised fashion to this very day when teams like Barcelona and Spain define success in football day.
But if you listen to the local pundits, who for reasons unknown, find it hard to give praise where it is due, you would think that Messi is some bum player who just happens to be lucky, extremely lucky and has been so for a very long time. So much so that this year he has scored more goals in a calendar year than any other player in history – 90 so far and could end on even more before the year ends. This is why every player who has ever played with him or against him hails the little master as the best player in the world today.
Messi is the fourth football player to win three Ballons d’Or and the second player to win three consecutive Ballons d’Or. Messi has won five La Ligas, two Copas del Rey, five Supercopas de Espana, three Champions Leagues, two Super Cups and two Club World Cups. In 2012, Messi made UEFA Champions League history by becoming the first player to score five goals in one match.
He also matched Jose Altafini’ss record of 14 goals in a single Champions League season. Messi became the first player to top-score in four successive Champions League campaigns. He set the world record for most goals scored in a season during the 2011–12 season, with 73 goals. In the same, he set the current goal-scoring record in a single La Liga season, scoring 50 goals.
Messi was the top scorer of the 2005 FIFA World Youth Championship with six goals. In 2006, he became the youngest Argentine to play in the FIFA World Cup and he won a runners-up medal at the Copa America tournament the following year, in which he was elected young player of the tournament. In 2008, he won his first international honour, an Olympic gold medal, with the Argentina Olympic Football team.
But by Oral Tracey’s definition, if Messi is not great neither is Cristiano Ronaldo because the latter surrounded by players like Karim Benzema, Mesut Ozil, Kaka and company. The great Pele then was a mere cog in 1970 he played with Jairzinho, Rivelino, Gerson, Tostao or the great Carlos Alberto Torres. How then also would he have characterized the great Johan Cruyff, who played on that great Dutch team in 1974 and who played alongside Johanes Neeskens and the van de Kerkhf brothers – Reiner and Willie. Like Messi, Cruyff did not win a world cup but did exceptionally well for his clubs which ironically also included Barcelona, where he was surrounded by great talent.
If we used Hinds’ definition of a great player to define how great a player is then Michel Platini is nothing but another French player. After all, he only played with players like Tigana, Tresor, Rocheteau and Giresse, but France won nothing back then. It is true that with the exception of this year Messi has done very little for Argentina but that was a matter of structure and philosophy. For a long time Argentina stubbornly refused to make Messi the engine of the Argentinean system, preferring instead to go with players like the mercurial Juan Riquelme, who while being talented just didn’t show up in games. In many of those instances Argentina’s success was entirely dependent on what mood Riquelme was in. This current team has now made Messi its centre piece and success has come and Messi has scored 12 goals for his country in 2012. In fact, in 76 internationals for Argentina, Messi has scored 31 goals, a pretty decent record. One would be hard-pressed to find better national scoring records.
Hinds’ definition of what makes a player great would deny greatness to players like the great Eusebio, the Black Pearl, who never had great success with Portugal, even though he scored in bunches for his adopted country but who had immense success with his club Benfica. With them he won 11 Premiera Liga titles, five Portuguese Cups and one European title. His teammate Antonio Simoes once said that with Eusebio Benfica felt they could have won several European titles without him perhaps the League title.
It is the same with Messi. Yes, he has other very gifted players around him. He makes them better and they make him great. It’s what great players do. They stand out from the crowd. When their teams are loaded with talent they still rise above all to produce greatness. That is what many of local pundits refuse to recognise. No one doubts that Messi is surrounded by talent but even with all the talent that surrounds him, he is the one everyone still talks about.
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40 Responses to “WHY DO WE TRY TO DENY MESSI GREATNESS?”
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Until he wins WC titles for his country–He is no more than a glorified great club baller–
Please note, I am not denying his greatness but at the club level–
He cannot be mentioned in the same sentence as Pele or Diego–
Go back to the drawing board–
That is a load of crap. So only players who win the world cup can be classified as great? So Eusebio wasnt a great player or Puskas or Zico or Socrates, Michel Platini? Barcelona right now can beat most if not all countries playing in the world cup so I dont understand what is meant by ‘glorified great club baller’. Which country can over-run Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern Munich, even Manchester United? None.
Surely not! Why is Messi not held to the same standard as others who were/are considered Great?i.e–Winning WC titles for your country?
I am not denying him greatness–ONLY at the club level but to put him in the same category as Pele and Diego is rubbish–
Playing for your club is not the same as playing representing your country and performing on the highest stage!!
At the highest stage that’s where players up their game;bars are raised and were nerves are tested. NOT at the club level!
You have to perform at the highest level to be considered in the same category as Pele and Diego! Simply–Do not obfuscate the issue with club stats-
So if Messi came from a country that was unable to field a strong national team does that take away from his ability to play and score goals? As for the comparisons to Pele and Maradona, I don’t know how we got there since nobody was saying he is the greatest of all time.
Here’s the thing. Barca is made up of a significant number of players from the World and twice European champions, Spain, what makes the country level higher than club level when the many of the top clubs in the world are made up of the best players in the world? Do these players lose a step, or dont engage their full skill sets when they are playing for their clubs where they are paid millions of dollars?
In international soccer, country level of soccer doesnt necessarily mean that they are playing at a higher level than they do for their clubs and therein lies the problem. Country is not necessarily higher than club when the very same players are involved and the level of incentive is pretty much the same – vast amounts of cash versus loyalty to country.
If you are being paid US$10 million a year to represent your club would you play with less commitment when playing for your country for ‘free’?
If greatness means winning a world cup,then George Weah who has never won a world cup, but won African player of the year(1989,1994,1995) European player of the year (1995) Fifa world player (1995)& African player of the century would be classified as just a club player.
With all it’s pomp , glory and been the ultimate football event , the World Cup is a tournament, and just like Gsat many really brilliant pupils get nervous when faced with this big occasion, whilst Messi has always turned up, not all players does at the World Cup . Run a forensic on his performances at World Cup and we will see that he has done more than his fair share for Argentina. I would rather judge a player or any entity for that matter on day to day output rather than every four years.
its because we have this uninformed opinion that world cup football is better than the top level club football .
The top club teams have more quality than the world cup teams and they play together eleven of twelve months in every year whereas world cup teams are all star collections that only come together for a couple days before any match or about three weeks for a major tournament.
The prize money on offer for a champions league gold is in the order of 90 million euros and its won every year . The world cup gold medal brings about 30 million euros ,every four years.
MESSI, will become the first player to be voted world player of the year for a fourth consecutive occasion . THis is unprecedented.
He has erased most goalscoring-rate records competing against world cup winners past and present AND CONTINUES TO DO SO , against the backdrop of organised and totally defensive teams and tactics .
At Barca , which can be described as the world cup and euro champions team ,Messi stands out as the most important cog in the ‘best playing team ever in football ..
levy..my respect for you just go up a whole heap. I always thought you were just a track and field guy but your column just shoot down the garbage that these idiots speak so I see you know your football.the level of football played in Champions League is way higher than WC.Jamaica right now is aspiring to go to the WC.there are dozens of club teams in Europe who would destroy Jamaica and many of these national teams. Messi continues to destroy these teams every season every year,not every 4 years.right now 32 teams take part in the WC back in 1986 when Argentina won it was 24,when Brazil won in 1970 it was 16 and in 1958 8 teams. so right now it is way more difficult for a team to win WC. any player can have a good run in a World Cup tournament.7 games nice run.anyone remember Salvatore Schillachi in 1990 WC.he scored the most goals playing for Italy but 2 years later he couldnt find a team in Italy and ended playing in the Middle East. the WC is no longer the highest standard.the Champions League is.13 games to win over 9 months. the greatest players in the World all play in Europe.Messi has been the standout player in that tournament for since 2009.
good, sensible article. well articulated and researched. basically by our local pundits reasoning, a Jamaican can NEVER be the greatest player ever because we know with our current system Jamaica will never win the World Cup. local pundits like to talk but don’t like to think. if an American ever were to become a superstar beyond belief, trust me he would be derided. at least Messi has a chance with these morons. great minds have already seen the light, and have spent time watching the great Messi and Barcelona, not wasted time watching other boring clubs who choose the kick down Messi method or “park the bus” method. Kudos to you.
Messi’s so-called world record needs to be put into proper context. Any striker playing in such leagues and surrounded by great players as he is at Barcelona is likely to score a lot of goals. He has done squat for his country, which is a real indictment on the universal claim to him being so “great”. Further, a lot of his goals have come against minnows and clubs that are at a lower tier. Messi is a good player but certainly not yet on the same level as the GREATS Maradonna and Pele.
If we take a careful look at the world of soccer nowadays , it’s important to note a certain trend. It may be subconscious or whatever , but a significant number of the better players do perform at a much higher level when playing for their clubs than they do for their countries. A stark example was Ronaldinho in the 2006 WC. He was voted the best player in the world and played not an ounce of ball for Brazil in that tournament.
We could mention Thiery Henry ; all conquering at Arsenal but just good for France. How about Rooney , Gerrard , Lampard , Drogba , Ronaldo ? Aren’t they lesser performers at the national level?
Could it be the amount of club ball being played and where the real allegiance of these players are at?
Fortis:
Abosolutely correct–We need not even go further because their reasoning and acclaim is without merit..
Club ball is just that! Club ball–
Was Jordan great before he won championships?
Was Pele great before he won championships?
Was Marradonna great before he won championships?
You have numerous clubs around the world bidding for the best players so NOT every club is gonna have the best fr their country so the competition is watered down considerably.
I rest my case. He is a Club-baller–No more.
@howardi .your arguement makes no sense.Jordan was able to play for a championship EVERY year,not every 4 years therefore he has way more chances to win a title.over a 12 year period a basketball player gets 12 chances,a football player gets 3 WC chances at most.also basketball has playoffs so you hardly get upsets because teams have to win 4 games to advance to the next round therefore the better team has chances to recover if they have a bad game,in WC football its one and done in the KO rounds. you are comparing apples and oranges
you know nothing about Maradonna..before the 1982 WC he was universally acclaimed as the best player in the World.he hadnt won a WC yet. i can still remember him getting a red card in Argentina’s final game (against Brazil) and the commentator saying “red card Maradonna,red card,the man who came to the world cup as the games best player now leaves in disgrace” that was 1982 ,4 years before he won a “championship” .in 1984 he was sold to Barcelona for a world record transfer fee,2 years before his “Championship” .any player who costs World record money to buy must be a great..in 1986 the greatness showed..you might rest your case but you never had a case to begin with.
@FORTIS..your reasoning has now convinced me that not everyman who screams FORTIS,FORTIS has common sense.people who live and breath football and have played and managed at the highest level have openly declared Messi as the best player in the World.Alex Ferguson, Arsene Wegner,Ronaldinho,Diego Simeone,original Ronaldo are a few who I can remember. these people opinion carry way way way more weight than yours or Oral Tracey or Wavell Hinds.matter a fact Ronaldinho who won 3 World player of the year awards while at Barca once said while receiving his award “I am not the greatest player in the World,Im not even the best player at Barca,there is a little guy at Barca who will be better than me” he was referring to Messi who at that time had not played 1 single game for the Barcelona senior team but Dinho knows greatness when he sees it,even at a early stage.
I take no pleasure in schooling a fellow FORTISIAN but you might be young so theres no shame in learning
howardi, your last point is greatly flawed. For one, clubs will get the best ballers from a country because they pay them better than other clubs and their countries. Players represent their countries to get contracts from top clubs as well as in service to country. As to which one comes first, that is another debate. However, Pele and Maradonna were stars before they won WC with their countries. In fact, if Maradonna and Pele had not won WC with their respective countries we would not even consider them great. Also, many mediocre players have won WC with their respective countries and many great players have never won a WC. To crucify Messi because he has not won a WC is a false premise. The average player plies his trade for a club nine months for the year and during that plays about 10 international matches. With a few exceptions most players have a much better record for club than country most of those have never won and will never win a WC – case in point Didier Drogba. To judge players on just roughly 60 matches over a 4-year period as opposed to about 4 times that number for club over the same period is unfair.
Oh, and WC is watered down as well. If 32 teams play in a month-long tournament where the best team may not even win is not a diluted contest I don’t know what else is.
Messi the greatest of all time Jamaicans are always stuck in the past, afraid to acknowledge fact. saying that Messi would be the best if he won a world cup you just sound dumb, because his team can win the world cup & he dont play good.
I am no football expert, but if the achievements identified in the article are true, it is absolutely ridiculous to even have an argument about Messi’s greatness.
In any event I think club football at the level Messi plays is of a higher standard than the World Cup.
No player in any sport with this kind of record could ever be denied greatness. I am a fan of the NBA and there are many players who have not won a title, but are listed as top players.
As we are wont to do in Jamaica, we cloud our analysis by subjective injections,ignoring the truth because it is inconvenient.
You do not need to be an expert at football to see this man’s greatness. If he is not great, then his detractor need to answer this question:
WHY IS HE THE ONE PERFORMING AT THIS LEVEL?
I enjoyed reading the debate. Messi is indeed a great player. People are just shortsighted. It’s sad.
Those proclaiming that club football is at a higher level than WC football have inadvertently poured cold water on their labeling of Messi as “great”. Why?? Well, if club football is at a higher level than WC football and messi is the greatest baller on planet earth, then should have had NO PROBLEM LEADING ARGENTINA TO WC GLORY!!!!!! The fact is HE HAS DONE SQUAT FOR ARGENTINA!!!!
As to the one posting as southy, the nere fact that you use the term “FORTISIAN” tells me immediately that you would have no idea about Dougs or Bishop Gibson. So heed your own advice and go back to learning more about that which you profess to know. Next time think twice before attempting to “school” a fellow K.C. OLD BOY on a public forum, as he could very well be older than you!!!!!
…having read the article and reading previous comments made here it appears both sides do makes strong cases for and against Messi..nevertheless I like most people would vote(close) Messi belongs in the top echelon of soccer greats..
When Lionel Messi collected ballon d’Or for the third consecutive year, Alex ferguson was asked about the greatness of Messi, his words were “Lionel Messi without question fits into that category.” he also said although Messi did not won a WC he could now be judged alongside the greats of world football through the ages, comparing him with the likes of Di Stefano, Pele, Maradona,& Cruyff.
messi is better than maradona,and his only peer is pele
Brian Lara has never won the cricket world cup, i dear any one tell me Lara isn’t great. Lara is a left handed genius , Messi is a left footed genius . Greatness should not be measured by tournaments,what of the fringe players who have won world cup titles, does that make them great …, just a thought !
Messi is a GREAT CLUB FOOTBALLER–P-E-R-I-O-D!!Until he wins a WC–by the way is the standard and the level by which a player is etched as among the likes of Marodonna and Pele then you can come talk to me about the merits of Club Baller Messi in their/that category.
Many players were great but could not be mentioned in the same breath as Pele or Maradonna!!
Leighton:
Thanks for making my point–They were Stars but not great until they won a WC for their respective countries–Good point..(I am being facetious)–
If winning WC defines greatness then answer this question,if Argentina wins the WC in 2014 & Messi only plays the first match then missed the rest of the tournament via injury,or let’s say he plays the entire tournament and his performance is pure crap would you adorn him with greatness,I don’t think so because for years to come people will be talking about the bad performance of Lionel Messi. Let’s go back down memory lane. In 1958 when pele won WC he was’nt the star,Garrincha was, but the performance of Pele was a contributing factor,1962 & 1966 we cannot say much about Pele, in 1970 Brazil won WC with Pele,one special note Jairzinho played a bigger impact for Brazil reason being he scored in each and every games for Brazil,however, Pele’s performance was a contributing factor. Answer this question. If Brazil had never won WC from 1958-1970 with Pele performing so great would you deny him greatness? Argentina won in 1978 with Mario Kempes scoring 6 goals. Italy won in 1982 with Paolo Rossi scoring 6 goals. Argentina won in 1986 with Diego Armando Maradona. Nobody is talking about Kempes or Rossi,people are still talking about Maradona because his performance throughout the years surpassed Kempes and Rossi,Therefore greatness narrows down to one thing (PERFORMANCE). Lionel Andrés “Leo” Messi will collect Bllon d’Or for a fourth time because of his performance.
it just puzzles me as to why if someone is so great and some claim that champion’s league or other european club soccer is so much higher than the world cup, why messi can’t perform well for his country at the world cup then.its like saying that usain bolt is great and can win at the olympics but can’t win at a local high race even though the quality of the competition is way lower.
For those persons who has been saying that Messi has done nothing at the international level you need to look at the way argentina has been playing as of late. There is a marked improvement in their play, since Messi has been made captain and especially since they have really made him the fulcrum of the team. in the two previous world cups that messi would have gone he was not given the licence to roam as he now has hence the returns have been better for his country.
The claim that he is a club bully or that he looks good bcuz he is in a great team is also not a solid claim as it is clear that he is the fulcrum of the barcelona team and most if not all attacking plays go through him. It is also important to note that it is this same role that argentina is now beginning to employ that is reaping the success that is now seen in the argentina team.
Any player can be great at the club level, especially when he has the best from around the world to support him. Come to the WORLD CUP, and not having the same backing, that will surely test your greatness. Listening to the interviews from the worlds best football players, they all seem to have one thing in common, the WORLD CUP is the most coveted trophy to win. Messi is good, he’s very good, but Pele, Maradona, Zidane…….. he can score a million goals, he need to win the world cup first.
Ruddator, thank you so much. It’s like all the Messi haters have not seen what he has been doing for Argentina this year. 12 goals and the team is playing so much better than they have in years.
Fair enough levyl; 2014 is not far away and he doesn’t have to travel real far to the WC, so let’s see how GREAT he is then. And I hope the excuse then will not be that he is “too old” why Argentina did not win the WC.
I can’t believe the GREATNESS if Messi is still denied in light of the statistics, which will only get better. As most of you know, club football is of a superior quality to international football. Therefore, the argument that Messi is a club baller, therefore not GREAT is flawed.
For me he doesnt have to win the world cup, but for you he does. Legendary footballer players have declared him great but you have a problem with it. I guess the legends dont know what the hell they’re talking about. I guess they cant recognise greatness.
Levyl, I am saying the same thing as you, Messi doesn’t have to win a World Cup to prove his greatness. His achievements in football at the age of 25 years tells how great he is – 5 League titles, 3 Champions League, 2 Spanish League, 2 UEFA Super Cup, 5 Spanish Super Cup, 2 FIFA Club World Cup, ( 6 titles in one season for Barcelona ),record number of goals in a calendar year, 3 consecutive Fifa player of the year, & is sure to win the next one. These are just a few I mention…To deny Messi greatness is like saying he never achieved anything, and at the same time saying if Pele or Maradona never won WC they were ordinary players.
There is no doubt that Messi is already a Great in this, our beautiful game. However, there is a pecking order and in no way shape or form does he belong at the top of football’s “Mt.Rushmore” with the likes of Pele and Maradona. Pele and Maradona both excelled and were the driving force behind their teams at club and international levels (in Deigo’s case often times with average/sub-par teamates-Napoli and Italia 90′). Messi while surrounded by other stars such as Tevez, Aguerro, Higuain etc has failed to inspire his team past the last 8 through two World cups thus far. His lack of inspiration and goalscoring extends even to the Copa America Cups where the great footballing nation of Argentina miserable run continue (no senior titles of any kind since Copa America 93′). Meanwhile his Barcelona teammates continue to be the backbone of arguably one of the greatest national teams ever assembled.
Messi’s exploits at the club level should not be dismissed, however, Barca’s academy has revolutionized the game and the little man (more spaniard than argentine)the best pupil. Nonetheless, Barca likely would still reign with another star in that role, say Neymar as they did with one Ronaldhino. Barca and now Spain has reaped the rewards of the system and style of play that cannot be replicated outside because it goes in concert with the physical makeup of today’s spanish players.
Messi’s proponents point to the Champions League being of higher quality than the World Cup, that is yet still debatable. However, what is undeniable is the World Cup is the bigger spectacle where the lights shine brightest. One cannot turn in below average performances and yet be expected to be exhalted and placed on said podium as the Games’ brightest lights.
Mr.Levy,with respect to your reasoning in outlining Messi’s outstanding acheivements so far,there’s one main factor that seperate Pele,in particular,and Maradona is what you failed to highLight or measures Messi’s career performances against.Some how,this may undermines your argument to elevates Messi to the level of the two above mention greats of football.They have score a tonne of goals in their lives.However,this one factor which indellibly raise true greatness in football fans and historians world wide is,world cup Championship(s)with individual impact on it.This is what made Pele and Maradona household names of international football, not solely one’s performance at club level football.
Mr. Lance, the tonne of goals a player scored throughout his career does not necessarily prove his greatness, (it combines with their style of play & their overall performance). If that is the case then Let us look at Pele’s and Maradona’s records. Pele scored 1281 goals in his career, won (3) World Cup titles and scored (12) world cup goals. Maradona scored 352 goals in is career, won (1) senior World Cup title and scored (8) World Cup goals. However, when FIFA asked fans around the world to vote for Footballer of the century Between Pele and Maradona, Maradona got more votes than Pele. Why? The answer is performance. Right now Messi is performing better than any footballer on this planet or any other planet.
What I see very few persons try to do is to definne what constitute “Greatness.” Winnning the WC or playing well for a club can’t constitute “greatness” in my opinion. Personally, I use these as a guide to determine a “great” player:
1) The player’s individual contribution to both his club and country’s team
2) Whether the team club and country team would perform at a much lower level if they were absent
3) There ability to perform at different teams in different environments/competition.
For me, Messi passed #1 with flying colors. For # 2, I do not think Barcelona would have performed much lower without Messi and I also dont think Argentina would have performed much lower without him. So he doesnt pass this test in my book. He also played only for Barcelona so we are not sure if his would be equally successful with a less gifted team.
In summation, I think he is a tremendously gifted player and a extremely good player. But to call him “great” is an overstatement to me.
By the way, using the same scale, I do not see Pele as a “great” player either. Again, he is tremendously gifted and the sort, but I do not see Brazil failing without him (for instance 1962) nor do I know how he would have survived playing in Europe.
Maradona fits the bill for me (emphasis on “for me”). Argentina would likely fail if he was absent (for instance 1994), he is tremendously talented, and he shows that he can perform well in with different club teams.
One may argue that Messi is not the gratest to ever play the game ; to say he’s not a great player borders on the ridiculous.
The same applies for the Di Stefanos , the Eusebios , the Bests , the Cruyffs , to mention a few.
Would’ve been fascinating if there was a cricket world cup and Sobers failed to win one.
People often get carried away with the meaning of certain terms. Messi, certainly can claim the title of being the “Greatest Club Footballer”. He has so far not attained the glory at the highest level to fit into the category of those who have.
The best players of any country seek to represent their country on the World Cup stage. Messi is good but time is running out on him to prove that he’s in the “Class Of Greatness on the World stage, which is obviously measured by being in the World Cup, dominating and winning the titles for your country.
Sports attract followers who are pure fanatics: just going around round their mouths without facts to back up their arguments.
For a footballer to the World Class and Great;he has to prove his worth at the highest level.Argument done!
football world cup is not the highest level of football; i think we all can agree to that – the champions league of football is.
true greatness is: 1) unique – once in a lifetime (ronaldinho, ali, michael – pick one, schumacher), 2) consistent – spans over generations (even today name day we still talk bout pele and bob marley) and 3) immeasurable – as it boils down to emotion and opinion (which of us can put a # on how much someone / something has impacted on us?)
all that being said; let us enjoy (and observe) while we have it
While the debate continues, Argentinians do not share the love affair of Messi. They have concluded he is great with Barca, but poor for his country. He is indeed a great club player, he has been playing with Barca since he was 9, Maybe what his critics have observed is that he is great within the Barca system and lost outside of that system, thus they temper their admiration. Just saying.